Curse

Mineria · Jan 19, 2008, 11:34 AM // 11:34

I posted this http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10245925
with some sarcasm, that some failed to understand.

I think, the best way is to work on things that prevent instead of track and ban.

One suggestion to Anet is to add a stronger encryption check between server and client, which will block 3rd party app's, and even can auto ban the account trying to.
Like something that was used in an EMU for a MMORPG, and actually worked.
I got the codes from that EMU somewhere here, so if Anet wants a peek into it to have an example, I can copy/paste it out and send it to them.
But since that requires a lot of recoding in the login checks, this may be a bit to much work on the GW1 client/server.

Another way to do it is by adding randomly spawning bot traps.

And like it already has been done some places, by adding monsters with countering skill sets.

mrvrod · Jan 19, 2008, 11:30 PM // 23:30

I honestly think there will always be bots and gold farmers and gold sellers out there. GW isn't the first mmo and they all have the same issues.

It's no different than irl, you have banks, you have bank robbers. You have speed limits, you have speeders...ad nauseam. if everyone really wants the bots gone, then in GW2 have worker professions. Some way to earn gold without farming. Crafters, woodcutters, i don't know, anything that would reduce the incentive to turn to outside sources.

mmmkay i am bad · Jan 20, 2008, 01:37 AM // 01:37

if everyone really wants the bots gone, then in GW2 have worker professions. Some way to earn gold without farming. Crafters, woodcutters, i don't know, anything that would reduce the incentive to turn to outside sources.[/QUOTE]

i think there would be more bots if that were to be added

Kanyatta · Jan 20, 2008, 05:37 AM // 05:37

There have been many threads about this, and it seems GWGuru mods like to keep them locked and all hush hush and all. This problem could be so easily remedied it's not even funny. WoW banned over 20,000 players in one day for using macros to do automated actions. I don't see why GW couldn't do the same thing. There could be a lot going on behind the scenes the average player doesn't know about.

blakecraw · Jan 20, 2008, 06:33 AM // 06:33

People will make bots as long as it is profitable. I don't think any programming will stop that, especially in a game that can be controlled 100% by mouse clicks (not that hard to make a program that clicks the screen in certain places). Anet claims it is very costly to ban an account, which I find hard to believe, so they have as much as said they aren't going to ban the bots themselves. If it is that costly, then I don't see how anet could hope to track down bots, aside from widespread and possibly wrongful bans.

But then, there are the gold selling advertisers. Anet could easily just state that it's a permabannable offense to advertise a gold selling site, or advertise the sale/purchase of accounts etc. (and place a little memo saying that on the initial screen) then permaban any account that utters "check out <insert website>" or "buying prophecies accounts." I can't understand why that hasn't happened, it would cut out the #1 method of advertising gold sales, and would not result in any wrongful bans if it is clearly stated that advertising illicit transactions = banforlife.

pumpkin pie · Jan 20, 2008, 08:42 AM // 08:42

/report bot

if offensive accounts are apprehended, players get 100k ingame gold per violation.

need no programming.

System_Crush · Jan 20, 2008, 09:28 AM // 09:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

One suggestion to Anet is to add a stronger encryption check between server and client, which will block 3rd party app's, and even can auto ban the account trying to.

You do know that most MMO bots don't even bother to check feed back and just emulate mouse clicks and key presses?

The route to the door of Alltrumm Ruins doesn't change every day so you can pretty much have them path to it after some trail and error.

Mineria · Jan 20, 2008, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by System_Crush

You do know that most MMO bots don't even bother to check feed back and just emulate mouse clicks and key presses?

Yes I do know that, and I know that there are ways to make macro bots mess up as well.
Starting from how a character is spawned into an area to how npc's are approached and so on.

System_Crush · Jan 21, 2008, 08:54 AM // 08:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

Yes I do know that, and I know that there are ways to make macro bots mess up as well.
Starting from how a character is spawned into an area to how npc's are approached and so on.

Ya ok, true
But can that really be done without making those changes a burden on regular players too?

I feel the first action Anet should take is remove the ability to use keys to cycle trough all items on the ground/objects in the area.
I doubt (m)any human players actually use it, but it's a blessing to bots.

They will overcome it's removal with time, but they will be broken for a month, give or take a week.
During this time the people that download, instead of build, their own bots(the casual users, not the day wage gold farmers) will be unable to use them, perhaps it will be just enough time to get them to farm for themselves and quit botting even if the bots come back.
Also the gold prices will increase (a lot) during this time, hopefully discouraging a few people from buying gold.

A function to cycle trough allies/spirits&minions would be used a lot more and bots can make only limited use of it.

newbie_of_doom · Feb 19, 2008, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

/report bot

if offensive accounts are apprehended, players get 100k ingame gold per violation.

need no programming.

I'll be rich. I always report goldsellers if they whisp me, its annoying.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mineria

Yes I do know that, and I know that there are ways to make macro bots mess up as well.
Starting from how a character is spawned into an area to how npc's are approached and so on.

Spawn doesn't matter, pick up nearest item (= beacon thingie) and space. Then it's just trail and error. I believe Anet tracks bots anyway, from inhuman timings and contuining when death.

Kanyatta · Feb 19, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

/report bot

if offensive accounts are apprehended, players get 100k ingame gold per violation.

need no programming.

Why would NC/Anet reward you for reporting the people that make them money?

newbie_of_doom · Feb 19, 2008, 11:46 PM // 23:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanyatta

Why would NC/Anet reward you for reporting the people that make them money?

so Anet can make more money?:P

Ofc it shudn't be like that.

freaky naughty · Feb 20, 2008, 01:39 AM // 01:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by pumpkin pie

/report bot

if offensive accounts are apprehended, players get 100k ingame gold per violation.

need no programming.

Rofl, the way things are going now this could make me more money than duping mini polar bears. All the more reason to implement it lol.

You can't see me · Feb 20, 2008, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Randomly spawning bot traps would be excellent, and are used widely in other games, but the main downfall is they inturupt actual gameplay. Perhaps they should be triggered by certain bot-like activities instead of random generation.

newbie_of_doom · Feb 20, 2008, 07:50 AM // 07:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by You can't see me

Randomly spawning bot traps would be excellent, and are used widely in other games, but the main downfall is they inturupt actual gameplay. Perhaps they should be triggered by certain bot-like activities instead of random generation.

If you have random stuff to district you from game in pvp i r to be annoyed:P

MithranArkanere · Feb 20, 2008, 02:16 PM // 14:16

Hm... let me search...
Here it is:

The problem must be taken from how do bots work.

What do they do? They repeat sequences, without considering what is actually hapening in the game, without being able to 'see' the screen. So, how do you stop them?

- Preventing the sequence to start at all. This would be cutting the new botting accounts, the bot programs... something impossible.

- Breaking the sequence. This is a hard one. Most changes would bother a lot of players.

- Making the sequence useless. This would basically would be to make human farming work and bot farming never work:
** Do bot sequences identify items? If bots can't identify, then the key is making all unidentified items have value 0 or 1.
** Bot sequences can identify? Then what we need is a market to enforce player trading and making players get much more cash by selling to others than selling to merchants. Xunlai Market is not a definite solution, but a good help.
** Bot sequences cannot effectively salvage. Weapon upgrade traders and increased prices for savaged upgrades. That would really bring a bing.
** Bots sequences cannot recognize item types? Each merchant would buy the kind of items they sell for wise prices, and pay 1g for anything else. Players would be a ble to sell weapons to weapons crafters for 1..500g, armors for 5..400 to armor crafters, dyes for 50g..9k to dye traders, and items without appropiate traders would be paid with fair prices only by merchants (Alcohol, keys, lockpicks, etc) merchants would pay then 1g for anything that has its trader. That would KILL bots. A bit annoying, yes, but we already do for many dyes, scrolls, runes and materials, why not for weapons and armors too?

- Making the sequence impossible. This would be one of the best working methonds. Putting anti-bot creatures in every single farmed spot that players can easily avoid but bots can't, since and automated input sequence can't see the game. Like a creature that appear and starts activating and interruptable AoE skill that after 10 seconds kills every player withing earshot, players can see them and run away, but bots can't, even if they try to make sequences to 'run away' in certain spots, such spawns would be random.
You could call them 'Wandering Revenants'. They could have the 'passive spirit' model appearance, but with purplish skin instead of greenish. They would try to stay out of nearby range and could be easily killed with a single Holy wand and a couple of wandings in hard mode.

Here you are. The 'kill-da-bot Compendium'.
Let's make it bigger.

EinherjarMx · Feb 20, 2008, 05:20 PM // 17:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Hm... let me search...
Here it is:

The problem must be taken from how do bots work.

What do they do? They repeat sequences, without considering what is actually hapening in the game, without being able to 'see' the screen. So, how do you stop them?

- Preventing the sequence to start at all. This would be cutting the new botting accounts, the bot programs... something impossible.

- Breaking the sequence. This is a hard one. Most changes would bother a lot of players.

- Making the sequence useless. This would basically would be to make human farming work and bot farming never work:
** Do bot sequences identify items? If bots can't identify, then the key is making all unidentified items have value 0 or 1.
** Bot sequences can identify? Then what we need is a market to enforce player trading and making players get much more cash by selling to others than selling to merchants. Xunlai Market is not a definite solution, but a good help.
** Bot sequences cannot effectively salvage. Weapon upgrade traders and increased prices for savaged upgrades. That would really bring a bing.
** Bots sequences cannot recognize item types? Each merchant would buy the kind of items they sell for wise prices, and pay 1g for anything else. Players would be a ble to sell weapons to weapons crafters for 1..500g, armors for 5..400 to armor crafters, dyes for 50g..9k to dye traders, and items without appropiate traders would be paid with fair prices only by merchants (Alcohol, keys, lockpicks, etc) merchants would pay then 1g for anything that has its trader. That would KILL bots. A bit annoying, yes, but we already do for many dyes, scrolls, runes and materials, why not for weapons and armors too?

- Making the sequence impossible. This would be one of the best working methonds. Putting anti-bot creatures in every single farmed spot that players can easily avoid but bots can't, since and automated input sequence can't see the game. Like a creature that appear and starts activating and interruptable AoE skill that after 10 seconds kills every player withing earshot, players can see them and run away, but bots can't, even if they try to make sequences to 'run away' in certain spots, such spawns would be random.
You could call them 'Wandering Revenants'. They could have the 'passive spirit' model appearance, but with purplish skin instead of greenish. They would try to stay out of nearby range and could be easily killed with a single Holy wand and a couple of wandings in hard mode.

Here you are. The 'kill-da-bot Compendium'.
Let's make it bigger.

you do realize that what you said would screw all the players right?

TheRaven · Feb 20, 2008, 06:13 PM // 18:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by blakecraw

But then, there are the gold selling advertisers. Anet could easily just state that it's a permabannable offense to advertise a gold selling site, or advertise the sale/purchase of accounts etc. (and place a little memo saying that on the initial screen) then permaban any account that utters "check out <insert website>" or "buying prophecies accounts." I can't understand why that hasn't happened, it would cut out the #1 method of advertising gold sales, and would not result in any wrongful bans if it is clearly stated that advertising illicit transactions = banforlife.

Nice thought and I'd love to see it implemented flawlessly, but unfortunately it's not that easy. If it were, they would have already done it. Take this scenario:

In Lions Arch
Raven <trade chat>: WTS Bow strings 500g
GoldSeller <local chat>:SELLING PROFECIES KEYS!!!! 100K!!!! PROFECIES + NF ACCOUNTS 100K + 5ECTOS
Guildie <alliance chat>:Anybody wanna AB? Meet in GH
Raven <alliance chat>:I'll come. My trading is boring.
GoldSeller <trade chat>: WTS PROFECIES ACCOUNT!!! 100K!!!!!!!!

Warp to GH
Guildie: Great! Got 3 people. Only need 1 more.
Raven: Thanks for the distraction. I was tired of the morons in LA.
Guildie: What happened?
Raven: Just the usual. Some scammer selling a prophecies account.

BAM!!!! "selling a prophecies account" AUTO DETECTED!!! RAVEN AUTO-PERMABANNED!!!!

However on the bright side, I think whatever A-net is doing to stop bots is working. I spent a half hour in Great Temple last night with my guild and didn't see 1 bot. No whispers, no gold sellers in local.

MithranArkanere · Feb 20, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by EinherjarMx

you do realize that what you said would screw all the players right?

I realize that they would be working solutions that would not be real bothers for average players, just a bit of bother for farmers and a 400meter thick wall for bot shepherds.

- Most players already identify and salvage items before selling. Wouldn't be good to get an average of 50g per rune or weapon upgrade instead the current 26? Weapons and armors carrying more upgrades would be better too. If you don't do so, you are losing gold.
- Everyone has access to one Town at least, so everyone has access to each type of NPC to sell each certain type of item. That would also increase the value of Guild Hall NPCs, since simple 'farm->go to merchant' would be less effective than 'farm-Indetify->Sell to corresponding NPC'. On top of that, many people already save runes, materials or dyes to sell them later when they are near a rune trader. Again, if you sell everything to the merchant without identifying it, you are either not very bright or a bot.
- Not many people would care to get only 1 gold from selling unidentified weapons or armor if you can already get 100..150 instead of 50 identifying and selling it to the Weapon NPC.
- Would also the Xunlai Markeplace screw players?
- There are actually some anti-farm creatures, like the Dying Nightmares or Beetles with Chilblains, that can be easily killed by players, but bot's cannot see and counter.

Now tell me, how would that 'screw' players?

Moving NPCs around, removing singposts, random builds, limiting the amout of gold you can earn everyday... Such things would annoy players, but not things that would increase the gold players can earn while reducing the gold bots can.

Perkunas · Feb 20, 2008, 09:16 PM // 21:16

For the past 3 nights, I have been clearing the map from Ascalon City to Ice Tooth Cave using Heroes. When I started, I had full Superior ID and Salvage kits and 0 gold on my person. After reaching Ice Tooth, I placed 2.5k, 43 wood, 28 iron, 12 glitterdust, and a shocking bow string into storage. I had 18 IDs left and 6 salvages. For the time invested, that was not much of a return. If the return was 2 or 3 times that, the temptation to purchase gold would be lessened. Removing the need to purchase gold should reduce the gold botters.